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portingal
Lekman

Portugal
25 Posts

Posted - 19 Sep 2012 :  22:15:16  Show Profile  Visit portingal's Homepage Send portingal a Private Message
quote:
What worries me is that the more naive in heraldic circles might actually think that Mr da Fonte's "discoveries" are actually true.


Well they are not discoveries in the true sense, it's more an unveiling. I am glad that heraldic circles also admit naivity, which is the mother of invention. After all, when something new appears we are all naive, including the inventor.

quote:
Since no-one could ever disprove them ...


I can't understand the reason, wouldn't you even like to have a try?

quote:
Mr da Fonte having invented the methodology and even the language to describe it, he must therefore be right?!


So maybe we should think that creativity, methodology and terminology aren't wellcome in science? What does this has to do with being right or wrong?

quote:
He cannot produce a single contemporary source that could confirm his conclusions.


In fact you will find sixteen different justifications for my thesis on the primitive Portuguese coat of arms, back in 2009.

quote:
If he could the heraldic world would already have known about it and it would be the accepted solution.


Well, it has been published by the last International Congress in Stuttgart and by other top academic circles in Portugal. Publishing, obviously doesn't compell anyone to accept anything, it just says that it's reasonable enough to be considered, then accepted, rejected or partially accepted.

quote:
So now he makes up the tune as he plays and hopes we will all sing along, because as he is the composer we can't tell him he is playing out of tune.


If you say generalities as above I am afraid that it's you that cant' be answered, don't you think? Maybe it would be more profitable to ask, for example, what the heck is Godfrey de Bouillon doing in this coat of arms when we know it can only be documented many years after his death?
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portingal
Lekman

Portugal
25 Posts

Posted - 15 Jul 2014 :  11:58:17  Show Profile  Visit portingal's Homepage Send portingal a Private Message
Note that the above links are broken, please refer now to:

Cross:
http://heraldry.blogs.sapo.pt/11761.html

Martlets:
http://heraldry.blogs.sapo.pt/11852.html

Number of martlets:
http://heraldry.blogs.sapo.pt/12275.html

Tincture or:
http://heraldry.blogs.sapo.pt/12309.html

Tincture azure:
http://heraldry.blogs.sapo.pt/12991.html

Shield redundancy:
http://heraldry.blogs.sapo.pt/13183.html


Thanks and regards,

Carlos da Fonte
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Mikko Lagerspetz
Härold

361 Posts

Posted - 20 Jul 2014 :  14:46:12  Show Profile  Visit Mikko Lagerspetz's Homepage Send Mikko Lagerspetz a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by portingal

Note that the above links are broken, please refer now to:

Cross:
http://heraldry.blogs.sapo.pt/11761.html



"Canting arms" are very well known in Scandinavia, too, and heraldry seems like a good domain for inspecting correspondences between images and natural languages. The fact that the arms of, e.g., Edward the Confessor were attributed by later generations of heralds also means that they had as their starting point the historical facts that were known about him afterwards as a historical and/or mythical figure (instead of some kind of family tradition unknown for us). In other words, the arms are later constructions based on the facts and ideas mostly known for us, too. So the possibilities for this kind of analysis look good. But I feel that you are stretching your method too far. Some of your conclusions seem really far-fetched (such as "ce roi" => "crois"). Edward was canonised, so that should be enough to explain the cross. Maybe you are paying too much attention on the language and too little on the then prevailing conventions?

Edited by - Mikko Lagerspetz on 20 Jul 2014 14:46:34
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portingal
Lekman

Portugal
25 Posts

Posted - 11 Nov 2014 :  18:01:03  Show Profile  Visit portingal's Homepage Send portingal a Private Message
[/quote]
"Canting arms" are very well known in Scandinavia, too, and heraldry seems like a good domain for inspecting correspondences between images and natural languages. The fact that the arms of, e.g., Edward the Confessor were attributed by later generations of heralds also means that they had as their starting point the historical facts that were known about him afterwards as a historical and/or mythical figure (instead of some kind of family tradition unknown for us). In other words, the arms are later constructions based on the facts and ideas mostly known for us, too. So the possibilities for this kind of analysis look good. But I feel that you are stretching your method too far. Some of your conclusions seem really far-fetched (such as "ce roi" => "crois"). Edward was canonised, so that should be enough to explain the cross. Maybe you are paying too much attention on the language and too little on the then prevailing conventions?
[/quote]


Hi,

Sorry for the late answer but I haven't received any warning by e-mail and this discussion has been dormant for a long time. I thank you for the criticism and let me try to answer the best I know and can.

The attributed (or fantastic) arms of Edward the Confessor were based on the coins he minted, so the cross and the birds are contemporary to him, but not the fifth bird. Therefore, as he became a saint only after death, it seemed to me a good motivation to explain the inclusion of an extra martlet in the blazon. One of the proposals, as you know, is "seint" (Anglo-Norman for saint) ~ "cinc" (Ano: five).

Let me also explain that my methodology is exclusively based on observation; at the moment more than 6,000 heraldic traces were studied. I didn't "invent" a methodology and then tried to manipulate the results; this wouldn't comply with any known scientific methodology I know, anyway. One of the several features unveiled during the investigation can only be explained by the separation of graphemes (letters or numbers) from the word, and spelling them in that condition afterwards. Therefore "crois" (Ano: cross) could be detached as "c rois" and become "ce rois". This happens in both directions and is a very frequent behaviour. The detachment also happens for entire words and, for example the last entry at my blog, the "Miles of Leigh Court", seem to justify the fleurs-de-lis within the shield, by "Miles" ~ "my lys" (or the plural forms). In this case we may also observe a stress shift (another feature); see it published at:

http://heraldry.blogs.sapo.pt/miles-crest-105421

Finally, the main result is that the roots of the phenomena described as medieval heraldry is linguistic, the visual part being merely a consequence. I am 100% sure about my results as a semiotic structure. I've checked 6,000 samples and found (roughly) 6,000 results congruent with the 6 simple steps I preconized at:

http://heraldry.blogs.sapo.pt/methodology-2-ideation-104841

But of course I can't guarantee each result; I'm no sorcerer to know what was going on the mind of the designer of the blazon. Let's say that 80% of what I've found is true or quite, but I don't know which of the 6,000 in particular. However, as my methods are reproducible, I invite you to try it with any medieval blazon of your fancy, check it for yourself and maybe discuss it together, if you like. Be prepared to forget most we thought we knew about the semantics of heraldry, it is not easy to do so, I recognize.

Thanks a lot,

Carlos da Fonte
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Armigerius
Vapenkung



Sweden
547 Posts

Posted - 11 Nov 2014 :  18:31:00  Show Profile Send Armigerius a Private Message
quote:
Let's say that 80% of what I've found is true


You might say that.

Chris Green
President of the International Association of Amateur Heralds
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portingal
Lekman

Portugal
25 Posts

Posted - 11 Nov 2014 :  18:59:58  Show Profile  Visit portingal's Homepage Send portingal a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Armigerius

Let's say that 80% of what I've found is true.

You might say that.


I meant none other, mate.

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Armigerius
Vapenkung



Sweden
547 Posts

Posted - 12 Nov 2014 :  07:27:33  Show Profile Send Armigerius a Private Message
quote:
I meant none other, mate.

One thing I can assure you is true: I am NOT your mate.

Chris Green
President of the International Association of Amateur Heralds
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portingal
Lekman

Portugal
25 Posts

Posted - 12 Nov 2014 :  14:56:19  Show Profile  Visit portingal's Homepage Send portingal a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Armigerius

quote:
I meant none other, mate.

One thing I can assure you is true: I am NOT your mate.

Chris Green
President of the International Association of Amateur Heralds



I meant none other, checkmate.



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Armigerius
Vapenkung



Sweden
547 Posts

Posted - 12 Nov 2014 :  16:48:07  Show Profile Send Armigerius a Private Message
quote:
I meant none other, checkmate.

That assumes of course that I am the King, which of course I am not.

Chris Green
President of the International Association of Amateur Heralds
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