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 Ordnar och medaljer
 Cross w. Diamonds ORIGIN UNKNOWN
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Frank Martinoff
Härold

USA
219 Posts

Posted - 03 Feb 2012 :  17:38:51  Show Profile Send Frank Martinoff a Private Message
I pretty much looked everywhere,
but can't find anything similar!

Did anybody come across anything like this?
(it is not Russian!)


By [URL=http://profile.imageshack.us/user/frankmartinoff]frankmartinoff[/URL] at 2011-10-08


By [URL=http://profile.imageshack.us/user/frankmartinoff]frankmartinoff[/URL] at 2011-12-27

Frank Martinoff
Härold

USA
219 Posts

Posted - 03 Feb 2012 :  17:50:16  Show Profile Send Frank Martinoff a Private Message
Year 1902


By [URL=http://profile.imageshack.us/user/frankmartinoff]frankmartinoff[/URL] at 2011-10-08
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jonar242
Härold



Sweden
396 Posts

Posted - 03 Feb 2012 :  21:55:33  Show Profile  Visit jonar242's Homepage Send jonar242 a Private Message
What more can you tell about the picture?

Since the resolution is on the poor side, it would seem difficult to learn what order from the picture alone (not Swedish, at any rate). Has there been any attempt in trying to find out the occasion, and then the participants, and further on to calendars or registrys of orders to match the person with the order?

/Jonas Arnell

________________
Ledamot av Her. Samf.
fil. kand.

Information not shared
is lost

Edited by - jonar242 on 03 Feb 2012 23:12:43
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Frank Martinoff
Härold

USA
219 Posts

Posted - 04 Feb 2012 :  01:08:32  Show Profile Send Frank Martinoff a Private Message
I am just worried that it will confuse the matter if I tell you who he was, and where the picture was taken...because one will focus on one thing, disregarding other possibilities!

Anyway, it's the Centennial of the Corps des Pages in 1902!
He was there from 1874 till at least 1902!

He was Prelate or more, (based on the color of his Soutane)
Before 1880 also Cathedral Canon to the See of Mohilev!
and Catholic Head-Priest of following church 1874-1902...open!



http://img268.imageshack.us/img268/1373/1stjohnofjerusalem1.jpg

http://img72.imageshack.us/img72/1048/1stjohnofjerusalem2.jpg

http://www.encspb.ru/ru/article.php?kod=2804677891

http://www.ruscadet.ru/muzeum/mhkk/mikkr.htm

___________________________________________________________
Did I miss a possible similar Order in the Scandinavian Region
???

Edited by - Frank Martinoff on 04 Feb 2012 01:14:17
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jonar242
Härold



Sweden
396 Posts

Posted - 04 Feb 2012 :  16:55:08  Show Profile  Visit jonar242's Homepage Send jonar242 a Private Message
By 1902, Finland did not have state orders of their own, being part of Russia. Sweden (and Norway in union with Sweden) had orders based on the maltese cross with one exception, one based the St Georg's cross. Since the last is the Royal Order of Charles/Carl XIII for freemasons, this one is out of the question for a religious dignitary of another denomination. Denmark has the order of the Elephant and the Dannebrog. The last has a cross roughly based on the St Georg's cross, but the lower cross-arm is elongated and the cross hence not symetrical and not in the picture (the same applies for the Icelandic Order of the Falcon, can't remember offhamnd if this was founded yet). Further, by this time, there were not as many cross of merits from private or semi-private associations as today. In total, I think you can rule out Scandinavia.

Also, are you sure that the impression that it might be diamonds might not only being just that, an impression coming from enhancing the poor resolution? Generally, diamonds on orders are extremely scarce and given only to those close to a King (for instance in Sweden, his personal physician). The recipients are hence well known and documented.

Kind Regards,

Jonas Arnell

________________
Ledamot av Her. Samf.
fil. kand.

Information not shared
is lost

Edited by - jonar242 on 04 Feb 2012 17:06:58
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Frank Martinoff
Härold

USA
219 Posts

Posted - 04 Feb 2012 :  17:49:58  Show Profile Send Frank Martinoff a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by jonar242

By 1902, Finland did not have state orders of their own, being part of Russia. Sweden (and Norway in union with Sweden) had orders based on the maltese cross with one exception, one based the St Georg's cross. Since the last is the Royal Order of Charles/Carl XIII for freemasons, this one is out of the question for a religious dignitary of another denomination. Denmark has the order of the Elephant and the Dannebrog. The last has a cross roughly based on the St Georg's cross, but the lower cross-arm is elongated and the cross hence not symetrical and not in the picture (the same applies for the Icelandic Order of the Falcon, can't remember offhamnd if this was founded yet). Further, by this time, there were not as many cross of merits from private or semi-private associations as today. In total, I think you can rule out Scandinavia.

Also, are you sure that the impression that it might be diamonds might not only being just that, an impression coming from enhancing the poor resolution? Generally, diamonds on orders are extremely scarce and given only to those close to a King (for instance in Sweden, his personal physician). The recipients are hence well known and documented.

Kind Regards,

Jonas Arnell




Hi Jonas,,
Thank you for the Information,

no there are no enhancements made, I am down to the silver-grain on this photo,
my thoughts are, if it were metal, the reflections/highlights would be more even, the same for pearls, but white, cut stones have each a different reflection due to the internal play of light,
so I can also rule out pearls as well,


but I am (at this point) open for anything,
Russia as origin is out of the question, nothing the like existed there, already chewed through this :(

The St. George in Russia definitely out as well,
purely military!

...and thanks for helping!
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jonar242
Härold



Sweden
396 Posts

Posted - 04 Feb 2012 :  18:39:18  Show Profile  Visit jonar242's Homepage Send jonar242 a Private Message
In Sweden, the state calender included the officers of the Royal Household and also if any of those persons had received orders, abbreviated after name and with a glossary at the beggining. No such luck for Russia?

/Jonas

________________
Ledamot av Her. Samf.
fil. kand.

Information not shared
is lost
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Frank Martinoff
Härold

USA
219 Posts

Posted - 04 Feb 2012 :  18:52:27  Show Profile Send Frank Martinoff a Private Message
They strongly disregard it as a Russian Order,
so no need to check a registry, that is possibly missing anyway,
and all catholic documents (from this church)were taken by a french priest to France betw, 1920 and early 30's with unknown whereabouts!
:(
Malta's Records end 1795 ........ only minimal records in Rome!


Edited by - Frank Martinoff on 04 Feb 2012 18:58:03
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Frank Martinoff
Härold

USA
219 Posts

Posted - 04 Feb 2012 :  19:29:10  Show Profile Send Frank Martinoff a Private Message
I even tried to approach it from the other End/Side,
to see what he was wearing at a younger age!
http://img42.imageshack.us/img42/3569/praelatamartinoff12.jpg
same result...UNKNOWN!!!

these are the more important clergy, who came after him!

...also here ...Order Unknown!

they are at least similar to the one he was wearing when he was younger!

http://bukharapiter.ru/temple/img/268.jpg

http://pl.catholicmartyrs.org/index.php?mod=pages&page=maletsky

http://icxc.narod.ru/icons/murafa/P1020074.jpg

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Frank Martinoff
Härold

USA
219 Posts

Posted - 05 Feb 2012 :  12:33:47  Show Profile Send Frank Martinoff a Private Message
I just fell of my chair

"""Dystynktorium kapitu#322;y metropolitarnej w Mohylewie po sufraganie .."""


http://katalog.muzeum.krakow.pl/sites/default/files/imagecache/museum_object_picture_fullsize/remote/mnk/miniatures/95/2/05-004537002_1298635240295.jpg


had Googled in the wrong language!!!!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suffragan_bishop

...one down, another one to go!


Edited by - Frank Martinoff on 05 Feb 2012 12:40:27
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Frank Martinoff
Härold

USA
219 Posts

Posted - 05 Feb 2012 :  13:49:23  Show Profile Send Frank Martinoff a Private Message
from it's structure similar, but not the same!

http://www.mcsearch.info/record.html?id=475702

ODZNAKI I ODZNACZENIA, dystynktorium kapitu#322;y krakowskiej XVIII wiek, Strona g#322;ówna: Na równoramiennym krzy#380;u wykonanym ze srebra z#322;oconego ogniowo umocowany miedziany i emaliowany Orze#322; Bia#322;y, na piersi Or#322;a owalny medalion przedstawiaj#261;cy biskupa i kl#281;cz#261;c#261; przed nim posta#263;, Strona odwrotna: Po#347;rodku krzy#380;a emaliowany okr#261;g#322;y, wypuk#322;y medalion z trzema koronami, 30.93 g, 67 x 58 mm, uszkodzona emalia, #322;apa i ogon or#322;a - GRADE: III ODZNAKI I ODZNACZENIA, dystynktorium kapitu#322;y krakowskiej XVIII Century wiek, Strona g#322;ówna: Na równoramiennym krzy#380;u wykonanym ze srebra z#322;oconego ogniowo umocowany miedziany i emaliowany Orze#322; Bia#322;y, na piersi Or#322;a owalny medalion przedstawiaj#261;cy biskupa i kl#281;cz#261;c#261; przed nim posta#263;, Strona odwrotna: Po#347;rodku krzy#380;a emaliowany okr#261;g#322;y, wypuk#322;y medalion z trzema koronami, 30.93 g, 67 x 58 mm, uszkodzona emalia, #322;apa i ogon or#322;a - GRADE: III
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Frank Martinoff
Härold

USA
219 Posts

Posted - 05 Feb 2012 :  16:23:57  Show Profile Send Frank Martinoff a Private Message
...But the Dystynktorium was worn on the chain,
and NOT around the neck...

..so back to - Zero !


Edited by - Frank Martinoff on 05 Feb 2012 16:25:18
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Frank Martinoff
Härold

USA
219 Posts

Posted - 05 Feb 2012 :  18:06:54  Show Profile Send Frank Martinoff a Private Message
Quote:

"""Kapitu#322;a[edytuj]

Dla biskupstwa mi#324;skiego zosta#322;a utworzona, zgodnie z prawem kanonicznym, kapitu#322;a. W Mi#324;sku, podobnie jak i w innych kapitu#322;ach diecezjalnych, pocz#261;tkowo funkcjonowa#322;o staropolskie prawo kapitu#322; koronnych. Wymaga#322;o ono od kandydatów szlachectwa. Pra#322;aci i kanonicy musieli przed#322;o#380;y#263; jej odpowiednie dokumenty[84].

Kapitu#322;a, na której czele sta#322; biskup, sk#322;ada#322;a si#281; z sze#347;ciu pra#322;atów i tylu#380; kanoników. Stanowiska pra#322;atów ustanowiono w dekrecie Litty w nast#281;puj#261;cej hierarchii: pierwsze po biskupie miejsce mia#322; prepozytor (proboszcz ko#347;cio#322;a s#322;uckiego), drugie – archidiakon (proboszcz borysowski), trzecie – dziekan (proboszcz nie#347;wieski), czwarte – scholastyk (proboszcz radoszkowicki), pi#261;te – kustosz (proboszcz ika#378;nie#324;ski), szóste – kantor (proboszcz mi#324;ski). Dla sze#347;ciu kanoników zosta#322;o przeznaczonych sze#347;#263; beneficjów: dla proboszczów ko#347;cio#322;ów iwienieckiego, dokszyckiego, cimkowickiego, lachowickiego, nied#378;wiedzickiego oraz kleckiego. Pra#322;aci i kanonicy mieli przebywa#263; przy kapitule, opiek#281; za#347; nad ich parafiami sprawowali wikariusze[85]."""
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Frank Martinoff
Härold

USA
219 Posts

Posted - 29 Feb 2012 :  22:48:13  Show Profile Send Frank Martinoff a Private Message
May this help some day!

"pralature prepozyta w kapitule metropolitalnej mohylewskiej "

""Prelate Provost of the Metropolitan See of Mohilev"
or
"Prelate Provost of the Metropolitan Cathedral Chapter of Mohilev"

http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/807/sterbeanzeigeadolfmarti.png/sr=1

[URL=http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/807/sterbeanzeigeadolfmarti.png/][/URL]

Would love to find this mentioned article
of the St. Petersburger Zeitung,

,,,also his date of death "May 1905" is odd!

Edited by - Frank Martinoff on 02 Mar 2012 02:20:48
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Frank Martinoff
Härold

USA
219 Posts

Posted - 09 Mar 2012 :  12:04:24  Show Profile Send Frank Martinoff a Private Message
nothing similar among those till 1901,
and I can't access the only copy for 1905,
it's in a library in Belarus!


By [URL=http://profile.imageshack.us/user/frankmartinoff]frankmartinoff[/URL] at 2012-03-03

http://pbc.biaman.pl/dlibra/doccontent?id=8170&from=PIONIER%20DLF

Edited by - Frank Martinoff on 09 Mar 2012 12:08:47
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Frank Martinoff
Härold

USA
219 Posts

Posted - 04 Jun 2012 :  23:40:43  Show Profile Send Frank Martinoff a Private Message
Sadly I can't find anything that would fit the description of the
(two ) crosses...maybe it rings a bell with somebody
and that person would be so kind and share it with me!

[URL=http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/337/1adolphmartynoff1905.jpg/][/URL]

Uploaded with [URL=http://imageshack.us]ImageShack.us[/URL]
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Frank Martinoff
Härold

USA
219 Posts

Posted - 15 Jun 2012 :  13:42:29  Show Profile Send Frank Martinoff a Private Message
The only "Pectoral Cross/Order" similar in Form,
which could also be awarded with Brilliants, was the St. Andrew,
the other similar is the "Pectoral White Eagle", but the White Eagle
is not a Cross, and as far as I know didn't come with brilliants

In Russia, they seem to think,
that a St. Andrew is impossible, because he wasn't an Archbishop!

Any thoughts on that

[URL=http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/689/1closeup2adolphstandr.jpg/][/URL]

Uploaded with [URL=http://imageshack.us]ImageShack.us[/URL]

Edited by - Frank Martinoff on 15 Jun 2012 13:43:42
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Marcus K
Moderator

Sweden
1408 Posts

Posted - 27 Aug 2012 :  22:06:05  Show Profile Send Marcus K a Private Message
I would guess the Cross is some kind of Church insignia relating to his service in Mohilev.

Pro Traditione et Patria
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Frank Martinoff
Härold

USA
219 Posts

Posted - 28 Aug 2012 :  12:30:01  Show Profile Send Frank Martinoff a Private Message
Hi Marcus,
it crossed my mind as well
and did some research........,
but I couldn't find any with Brilliants
....?!

Edited by - Frank Martinoff on 28 Aug 2012 12:31:16
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Frank Martinoff
Härold

USA
219 Posts

Posted - 09 Oct 2013 :  01:05:24  Show Profile Send Frank Martinoff a Private Message
Marcus,
the "Cruce-croce pro piis meritis" with brilliants was established in 1920, can't find anything before that

Since I can't find a picture of the "pro piis meritis cum gemis"
the only thing similar
would be the Insignia on the collar of his coat!?

Edited by - Frank Martinoff on 13 Oct 2013 11:30:28
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Frank Martinoff
Härold

USA
219 Posts

Posted - 19 Nov 2013 :  09:56:20  Show Profile Send Frank Martinoff a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Frank Martinoff

I even tried to approach it from the other End/Side,
to see what he was wearing at a younger age!
http://img42.imageshack.us/img42/3569/praelatamartinoff12.jpg
same result...UNKNOWN!!!

these are the more important clergy, who came after him!

...also here ...Order Unknown!

they are at least similar to the one he was wearing when he was younger!

http://bukharapiter.ru/temple/img/268.jpg

http://pl.catholicmartyrs.org/index.php?mod=pages&page=maletsky

http://icxc.narod.ru/icons/murafa/P1020074.jpg






... I know, that there is still a difference between what he is wearing at a younger age and the Dystynktorium of his colleagues
(his cross has straight edges)...don't know how to explain it,
maybe I was just wrong with my assumption
and it is something different!



quote:
Originally posted by Frank Martinoff


"""Dystynktorium kapitully metropolitarnej w Mohylewie po sufraganie .."""


http://katalog.muzeum.krakow.pl/sites/default/files/imagecache/museum_object_picture_fullsize/remote/mnk/miniatures/95/2/05-004537002_1298635240295.jpg



Edited by - Frank Martinoff on 19 Nov 2013 10:00:13
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